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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.16 12:44:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Leeroy McJenkins
To OP: We are newb friendly, much of the Cluster F*** coalition we blobbed the mighty IT Alliance with are newish toons (looks at TEST) contact me in-game for more information.
And anyone considering joining Goons should google for "goonswarm recruitment scam" first.
Goon recruitment policy enforced.
As far as the Goons go - my understanding is this:
The website Something Awful has or is a community of people who refer to themselves as goons. Some group from that community, as a community, will sometimes join a game and play it together. Thus - the Goons in EVE are NOT an EVE community - but an external community that plays EVE.
What I've read and seen in some of the video presentations they've done - is that to be able to join them - you have to join the website community first - then - as a participant in that community - you might be able to join them in playing a game such as EVE.
In line with that policy - which I understand they are fairly open about on their web site (but haven't confirmed it myself) - they will also scam people as in the video above. As scamming is an accepted part of EVE game play - they're doing nothing against the rules of this game.
They do however seem to be a community of their own - that isn't much interested in joining in any of the communities of the games they play.
If you'll note the description of Something Awful - it is described as a comedy web site - and the goons seem to be set on having fun - at the expense of the communities of the games they play.
Now - one real advantage of this type of a recruitment policy is that they have to already know you from outside the game before they'll let you in. This makes them much less vulnerable to spies, while they are free to spy on other corporations. It also has the advantage of having a relatively large group of people to draw on.
The goons aren't the only group of people who have come to EVE as a group. There are any number of people who are friends IRL - but - these people don't have the numbers to draw on that the goons do - so their very origins limit their size - when the goons doesn't.
As to EVE University - there are any number of ways to play the game - which had advantages and disadvantages. It seems they have their way of doing it and have created an organization specifically designed to teach other players how to play their way. I would expect to find people who don't agree with anyone elses way of doing things. So - it's not to my mind a question of them doing things the right way or the wrong way - but simply their way ... which is pretty much what everyone else does.
As to their paranoia? They have a big profile and cater to noobs so they are constantly attacked both overtly and covertly. Try to set up anything in EVE that helps other people play the game - and some people will try to destroy it. That's just the way EVE is. So are you paranoid - if people really are out to get you?
They offer something - and they offer it under specific conditions. It's their corporation - they can run it however they want. If someone doesn't like the way they do things - then that someone has the option of going elsewhere.
Now ... I do not fit their recruitment profile - so I'm not going to try and join. But - I can respect what they try to do for the new people of this game, just as I do the other people and corporations that lend a hand to those starting out.
Whenever I've been rejected for something - I usually figure that - they know themselves better than I do. If they think I'd not fit in - then probably I wouldn't. I don't want to be part of something I don't fit in with - so they've done me a favor by not wasting my time. Better that than some of the false promises I've gotten.
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.17 00:18:00 -
[2]
@Lady Go - got a question for you - have you ever been in the military?
Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.18 11:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
...
As soon as you start realizing that the 'rules of the game' includes a whole lot of stuff you don't agree with, the better off you'll be.
This is a game. One where you're free to play it however you like.
...
Hmmm ... just what I was saying ... except I was saying it about people who disagree with the way others run their corporations ...
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.18 18:09:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Hmmm ... just what I was saying ... except I was saying it about people who disagree with the way others run their corporations ...
If you have members and the members are happy, you're doing it right for your specific bunch of peeps.
If you have members and the members run because you've scammed / ganked them, you're doing it right for you.
The only problem is no members 
Not really sure I understand how your point relates to criticizing how others run their corporations ...
I'm not aware of anyone here being accused of scamming their members, just a question of their battle tactics.
I can't speak to how EVE-Uni. does things in particular but I've had some experience with training new people and ... often times ... training takes place at certain levels. You start off with things that are really basic and only progress from that when you have people who are more experienced.
Part of the problem with working with lots of new people - especially when you have an unending stream of them - is that you just are not physically able to sit down and explain to each and every one of them everything you want them to do and the reasons for it in the most minute details (especially since they will argue with you about it if you try). So - you just tell them what to do. Some of them pick up on the underlying reasons and come to understand that the way a group of new people are herded about isn't the way more experienced players would act but many others just take things at face value - and resent the things they don't understand.
You also have the fact that given the slightest smattering of experience - many people decide that they now know everything there is to know and will argue with you about every damn thing you tell them to do - primarily - because they don't like someone else telling them what to do.
Once you have a tight group of experienced individuals - you don't get as much of that as they understand what's going on and why they are doing it. They may not agree with the decisions being made - but they understand the reasons behind them and will act in the interest of the common good at least until there's time to discuss it later. The thing here - is that with a small group of people you don't have to explain EVERYTHING since they understand what you're talking about - you can just discuss the weight of importance being attached to particular goals. With an on coming swarm of new people ... *shrug* ... you just end up teaching to the lowest common intelligence and it all comes down to "Do This. Don't Do That." with little or no explanation as to why ... at least for the time being.
You can publish a lot of data for people to read but not everyone will read it - and of course - even the ones that do may not understand it.
The larger the organization - the greater the tendency there is to these methods.
One on one mentoring can really have a good effect on people - but won't work with everyone you deal with. They resent someone else being more knowledgeable than they are and ... argue with you about everything. Discussion is good once someone knows enough to have an informed opinion - but having a clue isn't required to have an argument.
It takes hours and hours of time to really mentor someone and if you don't have more veterans to be mentors than there are new people - it gets to be the kind of thing you just can't do.
In a good, established organization that brings new people in slowly - the new people are greatly outnumbered by people who are, at least to them, relative veterans - and these people can mentor them. But in mass organizations with a high turn over and constant influx of new people - that doesn't work. Only after the new people have become veterans themselves can you talk to them on an intelligent level.
So - any of your training groups are going to be, at least to some extent, superficial on the lower levels.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.18 23:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Roux Michon
Wow, this thread took a left turn and ten steps back rather quickly.
How did we go from, me an inexperienced player being turned away from a corp that is 'praised' by the community for helping inexperienced players... to being about wars and PvP ranting?
Just wondering... 
Happens all the time ...
What you as a new player get out of it - is exposure to some intensely held - but different - opinions.
You can read what everyone writes - and think about what they are saying - then make your own judgment as to which sounds best to you.
Mostly ... it isn't really a question of right or wrong (though it is often presented by the participants in exactly those terms) but different ways of doing things - which have advantages and disadvantages.
Most peoples posts - are fairly limited, if by nothing other than the character limit for posts. By seeing in involved discussion of some subject - you can end up with a very detailed acquaintance with the various aspects of the case.
Of course ... some of the time ... it's just two egos going at each other ... and there may or may not be anything to actually be learned ... So ... just sift through the stuff as best you can - and if you've got a question about something - ask. Who knows - you might even get an intelligent reply ... (of course ... there's no guarantee to that).
All in all though - this forum is a lot more civil than some of the others ...
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.19 22:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 19/03/2011 22:55:44
One thing for new people to realize - is that EVE is a very harsh, cold place where people will rob you of everything you have and laugh at you as they do it. It takes time from your real life, spent playing this game, to acquire the things in it. Thus - when they are stolen from you - you have lost that time from your real life. That is the point of having to buy everything - to make loss - real. In Planetside - all the equipment was free. You had to earn XP to get the Battle Ranks to have the Certification Points to use a piece of equipment - but you NEVER lost Battle Rank once you'd earned it. So - it didn't matter how many times you got killed or how many weapons, tanks or aircraft you lost - the game wasn't about loss - the game was about shooting each other - and they didn't want things like real loss getting in the way of that. EVE isn't like that.
Go read the Crime and Punishment forums sometime ...
People brag in there about how they scammed someone out of their money or worked their way into a position of trust in a corporation - and then robbed them blind.
Very powerful - major 0.0 Alliances in EVE have been done in through internal betrayal.
Spies and Backstabbing - is not only rampant in EVE - it is completely within the rules.
EVE is SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT.
So ... whenever people recruit new members into their corporations - they have to look very, very closely at them, especially if they've got a good bit of visibility as a corporation. If you go brag about robbing some two bit corporation in Crime & Punishment - no ones going to care - but if you could rob EVE University of a lot - that would get you lots of virtual high fives from the other criminals and a spot on the All Time Greats of EVE Skulduggery.
The thing is ... it's trivial to make a new account and masquerade as a new person, simply lying about your past - and they have to try and figure that out all the time. Unless someone knows you IRL - they can't fully trust you ... well they could ... they'd just be a fool to do so.
Now - we'll all just give you the benefit of the doubt here - since even if we thought you were a spy - we couldn't prove it. But - if you were a spy - writing some heart felt response to the corporation that had rejected you - is exactly what a spy would do. It's what the trolls on this forum do - and this forum is constantly trolled. Call one of them on it and its "I have a wife and kids and a dog and you're being mean to a new person ... blah ... blah ... blah" sayeth the Troll.
You're problem is that while we couldn't prove that you're a spy - if we thought you were - you can't prove that you're not. That's just the way it is.
My advice is - to go elsewhere.
Maybe Lady Go will take you in.
Oh and ... if you do get your feelings hurt easily ... not meaning any insult at all - but EVE may not be the game for you. Before you decide to continue playing this game - you might want to spend some time reading the Crime & Punishment forum to see just what you're letting yourself in for. There are good people in it - but it is designed to be a brutal uncaring game - where the good people ... are not your problem ... .
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Faction Schools |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.06.12 19:19:00 -
[7]
Other than getting to see Estel (who has accomplished more in his EVE career than most of us ever will) post one more time - there's nothing in this thread that wasn't already here before it was necro'd.
EVE University is constantly being attacked by spies. So they're concerned about it and post their requirements. They wouldn't let me in because I'm not going to tell them about all my alts - and I'm not going to lie to them - so I didn't apply. But I've read their web page and studied material they've provided and gotten some good use out of what they do provide to everyone.
Not everyone is a good fit for every corporation. They have their priorities and other people have there's.
There are all kinds of corporations that turn people down every ****ing day and there are all sorts of people who quit corporations every ****ing day.
Most of the people playing this game didn't go to EVE University - so it's not like being turned down means you can't play the game. Most of the people who go there - learn something and leave. So it's not like someone's out a career because they weren't accepted. One of the many avenues of learning the game doesn't work out - so use another. That or figure it out for yourself the way most of us have.
It's not like there aren't these forums on the EVE Online Web page where people can go ask questions ... or read the responses to others questions ... or post their own pompous, long winded posts (for those about to take offense - that's a reference to me) ...
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Career Agents
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.06.12 19:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Amanda Ardeur
Kelduum,
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Red vs BlueùDoesnÆt show up as a corp doing a corp search in ôPeople and Placesö or on a search on the recruitment board. It is listed in the forums as a ôplayer created faction war in high security space between two sides.ö
...
Google is your friend.
In people and places, select Corporation, then enter Red Federation and/or Blue Republic. Do a show info on the Red Federation or Blue Republic - and you can click to join.
I don't know what the holding companies are about. Some administrative corporation I would imagine.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Career Agents
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.06.12 19:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ispai Ponue
Originally by: Estel Arador
The isk was not the point, the point was having founded, run, and transferred one of the most succesfull and most appreciated community services in EVE. That is the great accomplishment of my career (and the 7500+ mostly helpful posts on the forums), not the isk.
OK, great. That's not winning the game though, "...one of...," being a key element here. You also did make it seem like selling your corp was the whole thing you where talking about. I respect the service and accomplishment on that end, but that was a little obscene.
Umm ... let me see ... you did understand that "winning EVE" was a joke - right?
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Career Agents
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.06.12 22:32:00 -
[10]
One more thing ...
Whatever someone may think about EVE University and their recruiting practices ... lets put this in perspective.
Let us say ... contrast them with ... The Goons!
The Goons are a group of people who have been hanging out at the humor oriented web site Something Awful since probably before EVE was a game. The name Goons - comes from that web site - not EVE. They play various games as a group - EVE being one of them. Their stated Recruiting policy is - that to be considered, you have to be a member of Something Awful and sponsored by someone who will vouch for you. This does NOT mean that they don't recruit in EVE - it just means that when the do - they are not looking for new members - but for victims to scam. They are very up front about that - thus their laughter at anyone who falls for their recruiting scam. Here's a link about just this:
Goon Recruitment Policy Enforced
... and ... the Goons are not the only ones who do that - they're just the most well known for doing that.
Then - there are the corporations that will not even talk to you unless they know you In Real Life. Naturally they are somewhat small but they are very exclusive.
So - in comparing EVE University to some other corporations out there - at least they'll talk to you and aren't scheming to scam you out of your stuff and blow you up.
No one should expect someone who's been turned down to be happy about it - but - the people being turned down need to be able to see the other side of this.
It all comes down to - it's their corporation and they can run it however they see fit. Other people can form their own corporations - or join some elses - where the people running that corporation can run it as THEY see fit.
If someone else wants to create another corporation that performs the same type of function as EVE University - well then maybe they should - and more power to them if they do.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Career Agents
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.08.26 12:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 26/08/2011 12:41:45
Hunh ... a comment on something I said 5 months ago ...
*shrug*
1) Vin - if you're heard it a dozen times before - could it be because it's true?
2) RL is both more and less brutal than EVE - depending entirely on how your life is going. IRL - you can really die - but there are at least police out there who have an extensive legal system behind them - which if you live in a nice area - keeps you relatively safe ... most of the time. Of course if you live in one of the worlds hell holes ... the brutality is not only real but on going.
3) As to why some gamers choose to victimize their fellow players - *shrug* - the reasons can be as varied as the player. There are whole threads on the morality of EVE so I'm not going to get into it here.
I will just point out - that in contrast to a Shooter like Planetside where the players do nothing but virtually kill each other - there is real loss in EVE where as there isn't in the shooter. In the shooter - you respawn - re-equip - then go out to kill & die again ... over and over and over.
In EVE - where what you have is based on in game money you must some how acquire - the time it took you to acquire the money you used - can be seen as being lost - when what you bought with it is destroyed. A portion of your real life was spent playing the game to get that ship - and that portion of your real life can be seen as being lost with the loss of the ship.
Of course - you could ALSO look at it as that portion of your life having been spent playing a game you liked - and the loss of the ship being merely a part of that game - after which - you can go on having more fun getting the money for a new ship and losing it in turn. So there's more than one way of looking at that. If you had fun during the entire process - which is the point of a game - then you haven't "lost" anything at all - as the time was all spent - having fun - which was the reason you are here.
The second approach - in a game in which such ship loss is highly possible - is a POV more conducive to having fun than the first.
So - you have the flip side of the question "why do people grief?" - which would be "why do people care?"
*shrug*
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Orbiting vs. Kiting
Career Agents
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